BOOK V.

Project Gutenberg EPUB edition Plato and Benjamin Jowett
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E And what is the prime of life? May it not be defined as a period of about twenty years in a woman’s life, and thirty in a man’s?
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Which years do you mean to include?
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A woman to bear children from twenty to forty; a man to beget them from twenty-five to fifty-five. A woman, I said, at twenty years of age may begin to bear children to the State, and continue to bear them until forty; a man may begin at five-and-twenty, when he has passed the 155 point at which the pulse of life beats quickest, and continue to beget children until he be fifty-five.
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461 Certainly, he said, both in men and women those years are the prime of physical as well as of intellectual vigour.
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Any one above or below the prescribed ages who takes part in the public hymeneals shall be said to have done an unholy and unrighteous thing; the child of which he is the father, if it steals into life, will have been conceived under auspices very unlike the sacrifices and prayers, which at each hymeneal priestesses and priest and the whole city will offer, that the new generation may be better and more useful than their Bgood and useful parents, whereas his child will be the offspring of darkness and strange lust.
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And the same law will apply to any one of those within the prescribed age who forms a connection with any woman in the prime of life without the sanction of the rulers; for we shall say that he is raising up a bastard to the State, uncertified and unconsecrated.
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After the prescribed age has been passed, more licence is allowed: but all who were born after certain hymeneal festivals at which their parents or grandparents came together must be kept separate. This applies, however, only to those who are within the specified age: after that we allow them to range at will, Cexcept that a man may not marry his daughter or his daughter’s daughter, or his mother or his mother’s mother; and women, on the other hand, are prohibited from marrying their sons or fathers, or son’s son or father’s father, and so on in either direction. And we grant all this, accompanying the permission with strict orders to prevent any embryo which may come into being from seeing the light; and if any force a way to the birth, the parents must understand that the offspring of such an union cannot be maintained, and arrange accordingly.
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That also, he said, is a reasonable proposition. But how Dwill they know who are fathers and daughters, and so on?
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They will never know. The way will be this:—dating from the day of the hymeneal, the bridegroom who was then married will call all the male children who are born in the seventh and tenth month afterwards his sons, and the female children his daughters, and they will call him father, and he will call their children his grandchildren, and they 156 will call the elder generation grandfathers and grandmothers. All who were begotten at the time when their fathers and mothers came together will be called their brothers and Esisters, and these, as I was saying, will be forbidden to inter-marry. This, however, is not to be understood as an absolute prohibition of the marriage of brothers and sisters; if the lot favours them, and they receive the sanction of the Pythian oracle, the law will allow them.
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Quite right, he replied.
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Such is the scheme, Glaucon, according to which the guardians of our State are to have their wives and families in common. And now you would have the argument show that this community is consistent with the rest of our polity, and also that nothing can be better—would you not?
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Shall we try to find a common basis by asking of ourselves what ought to be the chief aim of the legislator in making laws and in the organization of a State,—what is the greatest good, and what is the greatest evil, and then consider whether our previous description has the stamp of the good or of the evil?
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The greatest good of States, unity; the greatest evil, discord. The one the result of public, the other of private feelings. Can there be any greater evil than discord and distraction Band plurality where unity ought to reign? or any greater good than the bond of unity?
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And there is unity where there is community of pleasures and pains—where all the citizens are glad or grieved on the same occasions of joy and sorrow?
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Yes; and where there is no common but only private feeling a State is disorganized—when you have one half of the world triumphing and the other plunged in grief at Cthe same events happening to the city or the citizens?
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Such differences commonly originate in a disagreement about the use of the terms ‘mine’ and ‘not mine,’ ‘his’ and ‘not his.’
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And is not that the best-ordered State in which the greatest 157 number of persons apply the terms ‘mine’ and ‘not mine’ in the same way to the same thing?
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The State like a living being which feels altogether when hurt in any part. Or that again which most nearly approaches to the condition of the individual—as in the body, when but a finger of one of us is hurt, the whole frame, drawn towards the soul as a centre and forming one kingdom under the ruling power Dtherein, feels the hurt and sympathizes all together with the part affected, and we say that the man has a pain in his finger; and the same expression is used about any other part of the body, which has a sensation of pain at suffering or of pleasure at the alleviation of suffering.
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Very true, he replied; and I agree with you that in the best-ordered State there is the nearest approach to this common feeling which you describe.
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Then when any one of the citizens experiences any good Eor evil, the whole State will make his case their own, and will either rejoice or sorrow with him?
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Yes, he said, that is what will happen in a well-ordered State.
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How different are the terms which are applied to the rulers in other States and in our own! It will now be time, I said, for us to return to our State and see whether this or some other form is most in accordance with these fundamental principles.
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463 Our State like every other has rulers and subjects?
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All of whom will call one another citizens?
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But is there not another name which people give to their rulers in other States?
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Generally they call them masters, but in democratic States they simply call them rulers.
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And in our State what other name besides that of citizens do the people give the rulers?
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B They are called saviours and helpers, he replied.

Source attribution

The Republic of Plato, translated by Benjamin Jowett, Project Gutenberg eBook #55201

Before BOOK V. BOOK VI.